CharlesDarwin1809

We have different ways of looking at it, so no I don’t think there’s a lot of point in more discussion. Sometimes people have different views.

I would definitely like a situation where everyone in Ukraine and everyone in Russia can decide their futures democratically but yes, that’s not likely to happen soon, particularly because Russia seems to have very little democracy.

Zelenskyy apparently had an approval rating in Ukraine of over 50%, and sometimes over 60%, earlier this year, and also apparently 71% of Ukrainians think that new elections should only be held after the war ends.

Russia has no right to invade Ukraine to impose Russia’s will on Ukraine, such as the demand that Ukraine can never join NATO. Any flaws Ukraine may have don’t justify Russia’s murderous aggression.

If you view things differently then okay, but I guess that’s how I view it.

Nobody should be drafted and forced to fight

I would definitely prefer a situation where nobody is forcibly drafted or pressured to sign up for fighting.

it seems clear to me that there is/was some genuine support for it… Whether it’s 40%, 60%, 80%, whatever, I don’t have enough evidence to determine

There might well have been some legitimate support for certain regions of Ukraine to join Russia. I don’t think that gives Russia the right to start invading Ukraine though. I don’t think Russia would be happy if a country where to invade Russia to “liberate” Chechnya, a region which tried to become independent from Russia. The Russian government claims to care about the will of the people when some people are allegedly wanting to join Russia, but it clearly doesn’t care about the will of the people in other cases.

Anyway, I hope the Ukrainian people can determine their own future, whether that’s being close to Russia, or close to the EU, or neither, or splitting the country, or whatever. Also I think they should have the right to join NATO if they wish, regardless of what Russia wants. Would Russia willingly accept it if the US said to Russia “you can’t join a military alliance”? Russia would surely not tolerate being lectured by the US.

I wouldn’t regard the DPR as legitimate myself, due to reports like these about the “referendum” which established the DPR:

There were a number of irregularities with the count and procedure, and it seems unlikely that the figures announced are an accurate reflection of views in the region, with most of those who disagreed with the proposition staying at home.

CBS News correspondent Clarissa Ward reports from eastern Ukraine there were glaring irregularities with the vote, and that it did not come anywhere near international standards. Booths out in the open, people openly voting twice, and other irregularities raised serious questions about the legitimacy or the operation.

If you have a different view then fair enough.

I’m sure Ukraine’s democracy is flawed but I also just don’t think Russia should be invading Ukraine, or making demands of Ukraine, for example the demand that Ukraine can never join NATO. If Ukraine were to democratically choose to become a strong ally of Russia then fair enough, but that’s not the same as Russia using force and threats to make Ukrainians behave a certain way.

Obviously the war is terrible though since it is causing so much suffering, for both Ukrainians and Russians to be honest.

Yes military intervention is often bad. I guess I do believe in defence though. I wouldn’t want my country, the UK, to be taken over by force, so I think defence makes sense. The UK has a lot of flaws but I think a successful invasion of the UK could make life here much worse.

If the capitol police had stopped guarding the government buildings in Washington and let the Jan 6’ers take full control, and then Congress held a vote in favor of the the Jan 6’ers demands, would that be a legitimate vote?

When Russia murders political opponents, does that make its votes legitimate? I don’t think Ukraine is killing political opponents without even a trial.

There’s also regions in the US that are economically neglected, providing a fertile breeding ground to the far-right, which is, frankly, way more urgent to address than any other concern on the planet. I mean, if the US goes full Nazi, then what does it matter if it maintains it’s influence over the far reaches of Eastern Europe?

Yeah the US has economically neglected parts. I’m not American myself, I’m European, and over here we have Russia waging the largest war on our continent since World War 2. Zelenskyy did win an election in 2019, an election which, as far as I can tell, was more legitimate than Russian “elections” for a long time.

If you want to focus on America then fair enough. Here in Europe I don’t want a future where Russia can invade any part of our continent, whenever they want, and rule it without question. If Ukrainians willingly chose to be close to Russia then that would be fine, but that isn’t what has happened.

Ukraine’s current government came about because of the Euromaidan uprising, where a bunch of armed men stormed government buildings in the capital in the west, and declared a new, pro-Western government.

What I read is that Ukraine’s parliament voted to remove Yanukovych from the presidency, and hold a new presidential election.

I think it would be good if Ukraine could have new elections, with all regions that are legally part of Ukraine being able to vote. That would include Crimea, the Donbas, Zaporizhzhia, and Kherson.

I guess the reason that’s currently impossible is because the Kremlin gave weapons, troops, and assistance to rebels in the Donbas, to help them violently take control of the region. Then Russia increased its invasion in 2022.

Excellent billboard.

According to the article I linked to, the ambassador to Germany was challenged in an interview about Bandera’s antisemitic views (apparently academics regard it as undisputed that Bandera did hold antisemitic views). And the ambassador to Germany said:

That is the narrative that the Russians are pushing to this day, and that has support in Germany, in Poland, and also in Israel

I don’t think that’s the same as Holocaust denial. But in any case, Zelenskyy thought the comment wasn’t acceptable, so he fired the ambassador. Anyway, you also said this:

if the right wingers want to kill each other over which great power gets to extract some minerals, I see little reason to take sides

I guess my view is that countries shouldn’t be invaded. Unfortunately sometimes an imperialist power (e.g. Nazi Germany, or Putin’s Russia) decides to invade its neighbours, to gain more land, and sometimes to try to suppress the population of its neighbours, or ethnically cleanse them.

I guess I do take the side of wanting Ukraine to successfully defend itself against Russia’s invasion. Ukrainians should be able to make their own democratic decisions without the boot of Moscow forcing them into making decisions they don’t want to make.

if they used that slogan while throwing up statues of Stepan Bandera everywhere and celebrating him

1. I don’t think Zelenskyy venerates Bandera; as you mentioned yourself, Zelenskyy fired Ukraine’s ambassador to Germany after the ambassador made controversial remarks which were seen as pro-Bandera
2. I find it very revealing that anti-Ukraine people on the internet will endlessly talk about Ukrainian far-right figures while completely ignoring Russian far-right figures (e.g. Dugin) and groups (e.g. Rusich) who are supporting, waging, and enabling the war against Ukraine, the killing of thousands and thousands of Ukrainians, including civilians, and the kidnapping of Ukrainian children, not to also mention the huge loss of life of Russians, who are being coerced and pressured into fighting an imperialist invasion

Surely context matters. For example, one of the flags of where I live, the English flag, has been used to essentially express support for a more restrictive immigration policy

Whereas football fans will use that same flag with a completely different intended meaning - they just want to express support for the England football team

Blah blah blah Kremlin-funded bullshit blah blah blah

You’re an idiot

Just let people vote and respect their decisions. What’s so hard about that?

Ukraine’s parliament voted to remove Yanukovych

The Ukrainian people elected Zelenskyy

You need to let people vote and respect their decisions

Of course. Every Ukrainian who wishes well for their nation must be a Holocaust-denying Nazi. While every Russian who wishes well for their nation is a proud, patriotic, moral warrior against the heinous and barbaric West.

Just for the avoidance of doubt for anybody who reads this: /s

You didn’t mention cookies like your Kremlin handlers told you to

You’ll get fined a few rubles for that mistake

There’s enough of this bollocks coming out of the Kremlin so I don’t know why you feel the need to generate more of it

Yes, that famous Holocaust slogan: “Glory to Ukraine”

And that famous Nazi running Ukraine, the Jewish man Volodymyr Zelenskyy

Wow look at that picture, a “Heil Hitler” sign in Ukraine. I guess that means all Ukrainians are Nazis.

By the same logic, Karl Marx must be a Nazi, because he came from a country which used to have lots of “Heil Hitler” signs.

If you want to go down the rabbit hole of old British game shows, there’s a TV channel called Challenge. It’s on Freeview and Sky etc.

I went through a phase of watching that channel a bit too much. Things like Family Fortunes, old episodes of Who Wants to be a Millionaire, and some shows presented by Bruce Forsyth.