I’m an immigrant working in the USA, I came here because of the promise of a better tomorrow, a meritocracy, a seat at the table at big tech, and for a while it felt real but then my company was acquired by a larger entity and it all went to shit, now I’m in a race to show I’m the most competent and dedicated person with the most technological knowledge to keep my job and not get layed off.
If I ask my manager or my director a question or challenge their thought process I get called into a 1 on 1 meeting where I’m told I’m a great asset to the team but me asking questions of them in a team setting sets a bad example, and my questions aren’t in bad faith infact in the meeting I was lauded for asking the right questions, but being pulled aside and being asked to kiss the ring felt disgusting.
At one point in my career I cared about what I did and who I worked for I felt pride over my product and my team, and all I feel now is shame to be associated with my company, I feel disgusted with myself that I work not for my customers but for shareholder value.
So I guess my question if any is are there still companies that exist in the USA or outside that still give a fuck about what they’re doing and not just inflate that companies value so it can be sold or keep the stock price going up.
I would love to live and work somewhere where my value isn’t determined by how much money I van make or how much shareholder value I increase, I wouldn’t have to worry about a visa and if I can/will be kicked out if I’m no longer employed.
I could go back home but the work culture there is atrocious it was the reason why I had left, I lasted 5 months and I couldn’t take it and put in my 2 weeks to go to the US for a Masters degree in Computer Sciences.
I’m sorry that this turned into more of a rant than anything else but I’m at a point where I don’t really know what I want to do anymore, any advice or conversation is appreciated.
I hope you find your way to a civilized country.
Thanks :)
Yes. Check nonprofits.
Yep I’m going to look at non profits and also look at unions as well.
IDK if this would be viable with an H1 visa and I’ve seen many other options I’ll be looking into, but here’s what I normally tell people in this position: small businesses are built different
They’re harder to find, they usually don’t pay amazingly, but they’re way more human. It’s not all run through spread sheets, you work for humans who get to know you and (can sometimes) actually be like a family…(If they say that phrase it’s a red flag though)
It’s hit or miss, you likely would be working on legacy stuff or have to wear many hats… But it’s work where you know what you’re doing and who you’re doing it for
It really depends on the business.
I worked for two smaller businesses (team of ≤ 10 software developers). One was mismanaged, ran by very unpleasant people, and abusive towards employees, resulting in a huge turnover and a “dead sea effect”. The other company got government grants because the owner’s relative was a politician, and had ridiculous surveillance software on developers’ machines.
Ironically, the most “human” and enjoyable work I did was working on internal legacy software and code rewrites for a huge corporation before and during their move towards agile and modern “conveyorized” approach to software.
Oh absolutely… There’s tons of petty tyrants out there too, which is different, but also bad or even worse. They might also be just staffing something just as soul crushing too, so it could just be worse in every regard
But small business means your boss is probably there to stay. Ideally, you meet the owner in your interview, often they’re the same person. But if you find someone loyal to their people, you can actually give them your loyalty and they’ll see you as a person
Yep I used to work for a far better environment before the acquisition and would love to ho back to that kind of company, but it’s increasingly difficult to do now a days.
Yep… My first “career” job was for a mid sized company. In my onboarding they gave me my employee number but said “you’ll never need this, here you’re a name, not a number”. One time I emailed security saying I forgot my badge because it was with my lunch, and one of the founders called me up and gave me his prepackaged lunch because he said he usually doesn’t get through them all. When we closed a big deal, they called us all upstairs to have champagne during the workday. Our mission was unambiguously to help people
Then we got acquired… They gave me my new employee ID and told me I’d be using it for everything. They just milked our contracts and refused wages until we all left
And unfortunately, mid sized companies can give an equally good experience with much better pay and job security… But they’re being bought out to secure contracts and gutted at an insane rate.
It’s late stage capitalism… If you want to keep growing but you’ve already destroyed your ability to complete, buy them out to take over their contracts
If I ask my manager or my director a question or challenge their thought process I get called into a 1 on 1 meeting where I’m told I’m a great asset to the team but me asking questions of them in a team setting sets a bad example
This isn’t on you. If you manager’s skin is so thin that they can’t take some critical thinking thrown at them, then they shouldn’t be a manager. Though if you’re doing it all the time it’s probably very annoying. If they’re doing some self-destructive braindead company decisions, then just roll your eyes and don’t say anything while waiting for their comeuppance to bite them in the ass. You don’t have to kiss the ring but you don’t have to be a nuisance either.
So I guess my question if any is are there still companies that exist in the USA or outside that still give a fuck about what they’re doing and not just inflate that companies value so it can be sold or keep the stock price going up.
Maybe a small business with decent core values. They are very rare though, and are liable to be eaten alive by a change in management. So basically no.
Yep moving to a significantly smaller company would be most ideal but I don’t know how feasible it is with the current market and my h1b.
I recognize that this is a very different angle but there is a global trend for free open source software which are non profit by design.
Of course this basically means you need to be a developer and than there is still the question about how to survive within economic society.
I doubt you want to live from donations coming from where you are now.
The sweet spot, which might be viable for you is an open source devision within a for profit company. Many industries have started to understand the massive value of open source software and standards. Companies like redhat build open source tools on one side but then sell industry tailored packages and support to enterprises for profit. Even Nvidia has started to open source some level of their drivers because they realized that enthusiast will often improve on those for zero costs.
I imagine in some of those divisions its just like a normal company with not just devs but all kinda of roles your direct product will be used by the for profit stuff but also be free for everyone else out there that might need it.
Also hardware
Open-source hardware is almost non-existant compared to software. There is a reason for it.
I am an electronics engineer who makes open source hardware as a hobby.
Hardware is extremely different from software. It requires substantial monetary investment.
My company last year did a dirt-cheap lowest-possible-budget prototype design and run of 10 for someone funding themselves independently. It cost 8000€ for the design and that one prototype run, and an extremely simple design at that (electronically, medical-spec mechanically).
Software you buy a system and you can develop and develop and iterate and test 1000 times and develop multiple projects on that single machine. If you sell 0 units, sure you are out a computer and a ton of personal time. Sucks, but you won’t lose your house.
If you do electronics + mechanical development, every time you iterate on the electronics, that will be 200€-1000€ please, plus test equipment. If you make a small mistake equivalent to a wrong pointer that is another 1000 down the drain.
Hardware projects, pure material-wise, can cost more than a car to develop (just going through CE and FCC compliance testing can be 2k-10k and you aren’t allowed to sell in the EU without it.
You need capital to burn or be OK with a non-market-ready end product. Most people would rather make a down payment on a house than develop open hardware that might never recoup just the material costs. You can’t just give the hardware away for free unlike software also.
The key for open source hardware is crowd funding. Source: I’ve run an open source hardware company for years.
Thanks so much for your reply, sorry for the delay I got distracted and was watching a yms video, the issue is the visa a lot of places I would love to apply yo but th3y can’t/won’t sponsor a visa.
Though a non profit does sound like a better option for me I will try and look into open positions that would sponsor a visa.
One answer to capitalist companies seeking to maximize profit at all costs are worker owned companies. When the workers are in control of the business decisions, they won’t vote for the decisions going against themselves.
Sadly, I don’t know that many worked owned tech companies. One example is https://www.igalia.com/
If more people would be willing to start work owned companies rather than your typical capitalist startup, we could have more options.
Valve
I believe Valve just has a flat hierarchy, but not worker owned.
https://tech-coops.xyz/ seems to have a list of companies.
Thanks!! I didn’t know of this resource will check it out.
I’ve worked for a small business in tech for 15 years- it’s a great company that cares for its people. I think some of what you’re describing is just the nature of larger companies. The bigger the machine, the smaller the cog.
More to this point, it comes down to who owns the company, meaning the shares. Fiduciary responsibility is a real thing and is responsible for some of the worst things going on in the world right now.
Yep agreed and that why I want to exit the industry as even th3 end goal of a smaller company is to sell out to some investors or to get bought out by a larger company.
I dont see any new tech company that genuinely cares and will not sell out but everyone has a price and that why I need to exit capitalism.
There are tech companies who don’t want to sell. I started my tech company 9 years ago and we did almost $5M last year. My plan is to do this for next 20 years and then sell to my employees. Sure there’s a number big enough that I’d sell my company but so far any acquisition offers have been met with snark and disrespect (from me) and died pretty quick. I talk to other tech owners in similar boats. We just don’t need to tell everyone because we aren’t trying to get acquired. One vocal exception is 37 Signals.
Why not start the process of transforming it into a coop sooner? I know a business owner getting ready to retire, in the same boat as you. Except now he’s gonna have finance the sale for them and not all of them want to be an owner. To me, that is silly, but more power, more problems.
Well I’m at least 20 years from retirement. so I’ve got time. I’m looking into several options including coop and ESOP. First 5 years of business was living off savings and raiding retirement funds instead of getting investors. At present I’m aiming for selfish goals of repaying myself and saving for my kids.
Yep, I used to work for mid sized company and it was amazing, problem is no small(?) to mid size company seem to want to sponsor visas.
Good point. I believe it’s $$$ and is tough for smalls. Best of luck on your search!
Thanks!
I have a couple decades experience as a software engineer and manager. I don’t know if you’re ready to hear my answer, but here it is:
You might be in a bad situation, it’s hard to say with a single data point. There are bad bosses out there and it can be a nightmare, even at a good company. The “easy” fix is to try working on a different team or a different company and see if that solves the issue. Easy is in quotes because, as an immigrant, it may be tough to move to another employer.
The harder answer is to look inside yourself.
Your title asks about non-capitalistic companies. There are non-profits, but I don’t think capitalism is your problem here. You’re still going to run into problems at non-profits or even volunteering in open source if you aren’t able to integrate well with teams.
There are always going to be cultural expectations no matter where you go. The situation you described about having a 1:1 over asking questions suggests you either have an overly sensitive manager or your manager is right and you are not effective with your feedback. Asking questions can open up conversations or be used to bully people you disagree with.
The way you disagree matters. It’s not enough to be right, you need to persuade other people to be right too. As a manager, I’m focused on the team’s output and if one person is causing problems with the group dynamic, I’m going to address it.
I’m hiring right now and have passed on candidates who fall into the “brilliant jerk” stereotype. There’s research that shows that those types drag the rest of the team down. Remember, I’m focused on the entire team, so any one person needs to fit into that context.
If you find that your interpersonal skills need a boost, “How to Win Friends and Influence People” has good advice but it’s hard for some people to accept advice like “let other people be wrong when it doesn’t matter” and “compliment people.”
The other thing I’m reading in your post is that you may be burned out. The classic solutions for that are therapy, rest, exercise, and investing in life outside work. It’s hard to spot burnout sometimes, but check in with your support group.
So that’s 3 options forward: change your situation, improve your skills, or rest up and recover from burnout. Good luck.
Thank you for your comment, I really appreciate you taking the time and your analysis, I’m not sure if its relavant but by th3 end of the 1 on 1 the director apologized to me when they realized that what i had asked actually furthered the conversation and that they were hurt that I would make that statement at the time and in that group as they felt I was just digging up old corpses, when they were explained my thought process and what I meant and what I asked and that the point of that statement was to ensure we dont fall into the same pitfalls again, I was calm and kind in the meeting. I do agree I think i have been burned out for a bit and this whole situation felt bad, and I do agree that this is an industry/employement thing that I can’t really escape from.
And the other thing is I dont want to have to influence people to do my job, I dont want to have to walk on eggshells if i need to get someyhig done I’m an engineer my job is to give you the logic and the solution, they are th3 managers/directors and they need to facilitate my job, not tell me that me asking about our environment strategy and avoiding teams in silos is something they should feel offended by.
I agree with the OP’s response. It was well written and gave you several options. In particular, the point about cultural expectations sounds like the most pertinent. I don’t know what your working relationship is with your director, but the fact that they first apologized and second, when they understood your motives, lauded you.
It does suck having your good faith questions misinterpreted. However, it’s unclear what your director did or said that made you feel you were kissing his ring. Did he scold you? Or just explain how he felt about your question?
Others have given resources about coops and flat heirarchies, but this sounds like you want a very specific corporate culture. Even in the right fit, you are influencing people and will have to work with their personalities. Politics will always be part of the game as long as there are limited resources and risks in allocating those resources.
Thank you for your response sadly I can’t explain better without divulging internal information and politics, while I agree with you that influence and politics would be an issue everywhere as a manager or a director there are ways to shield your employees from higher ups which doesn’t happen here, we are thrown under the bus until I have to step in and explain what happened, why it happened and defend my coworkers, I have had better managers and directors and this was more of a poor manager/director in my opinion. My manager, director, all the up to the VP are from India and they are bringing the same culture from India the one I came here to get away from. It’s disheartening to hear “get with the program” from y’all, dont get me wrong but there are jobs where people don’t have to deal with this, my previous manager before the acquisition and him being layed off cared enough that this kind of non sense wouldn’t even reach me, especially stuff like this from a director, and y’all telling me “suck it up” doesn’t feel too good.
This is some of the best advice I’ve ever read on lemmy. Thank you!
but being pulled aside and being asked to kiss the ring felt disgusting.
You are absolutely right here. It is a very shitty boss. They can happen everywhere, but still not all are like that one.
I am an expert in my field, too, and I would have my way of withstanding such a guy. Not sure, however, if it is possible in Usa. I am in Germany.
are there still companies that exist in the USA or outside that still give a fuck about what they’re doing and not just inflate that companies value
There are. At least here. The work culture is much better in general (but very different between companies), because such single specimen of asshole bosses are not that powerful here. Firing somebody is a regulated process, and things can be reviewed later by independent people, in the company or in court.
As long as companies are not that huge, they usually care better about what they are doing.
I was looking into immigrating to Germany but the thing that a few people told me and caused me hesitation was the 55%(?) taxation rate that seemed high, and the language barrier I remembered back when I was in undergrad that Germany required you to learn the language and I found that intimidating at the time.
55%(?) taxation rate
Not true. But the real rates are quite complicated. Do not believe any simple statements to this :)
Germany required you to learn the language
All countries require that, unless you don’t want to really live.
Yep, high taxation rate is a concern but not more than my sanity. And yea English came naturally and lucratively US seemed the best option in my 20s, harder to pick up a language I was never exposed to will be a challenge but should be doable I think.
Taxes are high in Germany, but then again you also don’t pay for health insurance and get good public transportation. The calculation will probably turn out better than you’d expect, though nowhere will be quite as lucrative as America for tech.
That makes sense I think I’ll try and take a look at Europe again but I am also intimidated by my age I’m 33 and another uproot and resettlement seems very scary.
I’ll be honest: If you’re not white you’ll probably want/have to get out of the US anyway. Might as well bite the bullet now.
Yep agreed, I am brown and exiting the US seems the best route.
There are non profits, that is about it for this capitalistic hell scape. You do not need to volunteer at them, plenty have actual jobs. They can’t pay market rate, but more of a non profit rate, but it’s not bad
Yep I shall look into non profits and try my luck to see if I can land a job there.
Government services aren’t company, and some do develop technology, place like US national institute of Health, or US NASA, or US department of Energy come to my mind, but any first world nation would have tons of similar things. As usual doesn’t mean there is no bullshit to deal with (You know the saying about reserarcher main job is to look for fundings)
Then there is FOSS sofware some of them being managed by non profit who can afford to pay their developers
finally, there is a whole non profit/charity/coop part of the economy, and considering the weigh of technology, you may have some jobs linked to technology. (But managing let’s say the “red cross ERP” sounds as awful as managing any other corporate ERP)
Thanks for your reply, but I’m on visa not even green card and as such can’t work for the government right now as they require you to either be a citizen or a green card holder with certain government clearances.
At one point in my career I cared about what I did and who I worked for I felt pride over my product and my team, and all I feel now is shame to be associated with my company, I feel disgusted with myself that I work not for my customers but for shareholder value.
This tracks with my experience here as well.
keep my job and not get layed off.
For me, it seems like falling in line and kissing the ring is more important than showing ability, if you want to avoid being laid off. At a previous job, I got laid off before my very noob coworker who took months to complete PRs because I wouldn’t shut my mouth about RTO.
a meritocracy
🌎🧑🚀🔫🧑🚀 Never has been.
People still falling for that meritocracy stuff lol
Yea after working in the USA I was disillusioned fairly quickly when I was stepped over for promotions by people that knew somebody who knows somebody.
It’s all about who you know and how you know them.
Yep that’s my understanding as well, fall in line or you’re out.
I’ve never worked for a for-profit company since I graduated college. There is variation in non-profit employers, but there are some that are great places to work.
I got a job at a university after graduation (different university than where I got my degree), and I worked there in different departments until I took a job in the university hospital. I’ve worked here for more than 25 years.
The pay tends to be a bit lower than what you’d get at a for-profit company, but not as bad as some would lead you to believe. I’ve been able to buy a home, raise a family, and live fairly comfortably.
The benefits are very good. There’s a strong focus on education and growth, and work-life balance isn’t just a lie they tell people in the interview.
Yep from the recommendations here I will be looking into non profits and see if I can get hired into one.
No, there are not. Form a union, get contractually obligated dignity and respect.
I don’t think/know of a software engineers union and wouldn’t k ow where to start, also as mentioned I’m on visa not sure if that affects anything.
I don’t think/know of a software union
CWA and IATSE are both in the tech industry, CWA represents over 2000 employees in Microsoft alone.
wouldn’t know where to start
CWA offers training!
I’m on visa
Labor law protects everyone in the US, not just citizens, but I will be honest and say that risks to you are higher than normal. Aggressive union busting is a risk every organizer has to take, but just remember that Mother Jones, and several union heroes, were immigrants too in an even more hostile environment.
Thank you!!! bookmarking for future references.
By definition, no. You can volunteer for a non profit, like the Linux foundation, but you won’t make much money.
So its a yes then
Right, and in that case it would be best for me to move back home but the situation back home is quite dire, I have pressures from my parents to get married I’m 33 M from India and I’m hurdling towards my expiration date as it were in society, and the general situation in India insnt that great with religion and sex being the biggest points politicians exploit for a vote bank.
Are you an H1b worker? Yeah, you were most likely brought over because you’re easier to underpay and abuse. I’m sorry if that’s the case.
Yep I’m on h1b.
Yeah. I have a very strong suspicion that you were brought in to be cheap abusable labor. It sucks but that’s the point of the program.
Yep exactly, and now the industry is moving back to the 2008 model of offshore devs again, as were deemed too expensive even for the exploitative rate I get.
