As you say, you’re in the minority of Christians in your belief, and that many believe in the literal, eternal suffering, lake of fire kind of hell. Memes kind of have to cater to common denominators, so might then not pertain to you.
We don’t have many adventists where I’m from, would you entertain a theological question from your belief?
What role does Hell play in your denomination? In other Christianities it’s often a deterrent, source of God fear, and an answer to what happens to the out-group (heathens, gentiles, sinners, etc).
If Hell is a “short” event before eternal death-sleep (I googled adventist hell belief, sorry if I’m misunderstanding), it seems like it would be a very mild punishment for cardinal sins/heresy, but maybe you don’t have those?
He wants to forgive us?? Then he could do it. He’s all powerful, all knowing after all. What do I have to be forgiven for? Original sin? Give me a break.
How many hoops do you need to jump through to arrive at a christian conclusion? How many times did you have to be told to believe in something unprovable and invisible?
Your fervent beliefs are likely held less strongly than some Hindus, Muslims, Jews, etc. They are ALL sure that you are wrong, just as you they. Can’t you see the futility of pretending to know something unknowable? If you had been born somewhere else, you would perhaps hold completely different views just as strongly.
You blindly place your trust in other humans who are telling you to believe in something utterly impossible. You really think they have translated divine will over millennia? Let alone accurately? If the devil exists, then he lives in the utter hubris of humanity. To think that we can know the unknowable.
Isn’t it convenient that the “devil” is responsible for sowing the seeds of doubt. Isn’t it convenient that no matter what logic and reason you apply, your religion can merely hand-wave and say it isn’t for us to know? Are you satisfied with non-answers and manipulation of your emotions?
You’re being duped. I genuinely hope you can find your way out.
He is omnipotent, he can simply forgive us without our involvement. Or allow forgiveness after death, because death is an arbitrary cutoff. Or provide more obvious evidence he exists instead of giving children cancer.
The meme is applicable to your beliefs as well. Guess correctly in ~100 years of life or be denied paradise for eternity.
He “overrides” free will all the time, like when he commits global genocide by flood because everyone was bad. BTW none of them yet had Jesus to worship for salvation, so I guess they’re just out of luck, huh? Or when god directly murders a person does that give them a free ticket?
He does give children cancer. He created the world, he created all the evil in the world, he created cancer. “No, boo hoo, we are fallen, we ate the fruit,” he created the fruit, he placed us next to the fruit.
Heaven is completely unconscionable. If a child refused to come to an activity one weekend, you’d spitefully refuse to allow that child to attend that activity forever? That’s how a child behaves, not an adult. That’s how god behaves also.
The whole concept is idiotic. It’s clearly fairy tales built on the morals of the era they came from. But because generations of gullible believers have been brainwashing their children we have to deal with it to this day.
God wants to forgive us, but we need to let Him. The only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which is to intentionally and consistently harden your heart and ignore Him-- how can you be forgiven if you ignore the one who wants to forgive you? If you’re wondering if you’ve done that and wether you can be forgiven, it’s not too late. You can still come back to Him.
I might not be understanding the nuances here, but from what you say even an Unforgivable Sin is “punished” by oblivion in the death-sleep, no?
So I gather then that you don’t really fear hell, although not-hell would be preferable?
And if hell is the event at which you aren’t choosing God, why have it in the discourse at all? Or maybe I’m imagining it wrong, as to me it sounds like a waiting room kind of deal, you die, you wait until you make the decision and then you pass on to whatever you chose - rebirth or long sleep (in which case also the next thing to happen would be Him coming back, as either God changes their mind over eternity or you don’t wake up at all).
The Bible is a lot of different collections of many different books written, re-written, and orally transmited tales, of which at various points of history different Christian traditions have chosen which ones were canon and which ones were not (and therefore were taken out of the Bible), often with political actors influencing their decisions. If God inspired them all to write the Bible, how does it come that different Christian traditions chose different books? How come that plenty of its meaning got lost across plenty of languages if there was divine help? How come that an English Bible and a Russian Orthodox one may say substantially different things, merely due to translation divergences that piled on during centuries? If you accept all of this, how can all of them be saying the truth, if they dissent from each other? If only one of them says the truth, how do you know which one is it? If only one particular version of the Bible is the correct one, why doesn’t God correct the record to make sure the hundreds of millions of Christians through the world who are following wrong ones aren’t led astray?
While it’s true that some denominations have slightly different canons, they all still have the same set of core books. As for the other books, you need to see if it’s consistant with the others. There’s some that are fine, there’s some (ie the gospel of thomas) that are partly fine but also have some serious crap , and there’s some (ie the gospel of judas) that are full of crap.
Alright, so you have a belief that the “most complete” set of books that most Christian traditions chose (already flimsy ground, but let’s carry on), were chosen by divine influence, that whatever potential distortions or misinterpretations of the original texts do not fundamentally skew its original intended meanings, and I’m also going to add to the list that you believe that plenty of its contents must be understood as allegory or excused because they’re the result of a very different cultural context, because I don’t think you are going to excuse that passages such as this:
Allowing corporal punishment of slaves as long as they don’t drop dead.
There is a severe degree of arbitrariness in deciding that a very specific set of books that were chosen and translated by fallible human beings, under the watchful gaze of rulers that were often arbitrary and politically motivated, were divinely inspired to declare the Universal truth of an All-Powerful god, but you should also pass it all through the prism of your personal interpretation, because that All-Powerful god couldn’t be bothered to make the job any easier for you, or even worse,
Not everybody is held to the same standard. If you do something wrong and you don’t know any better, it doesn’t count as a sin until you know. And being a Christian isn’t about what you do, it’s about who you know.
Perhaps that god has decided to personally curse you, because not only weren’t you born among the billions of human beings that aren’t Christian, but you were raised as a Christian with the capacity and will to get yourself involved in theological discussions, which in your view, brings you ever closer to the knowledge of your god, and therefore increases your responsibility to behave as you think is moral, even if it brings you pain, doubt, heartbreak or confrontation with your neighbours, your community or your congregation. Why should you be loaded with this responsibility, out of the millions of people who have lived more comfortable lives, with more capacity to raise their own status over the abuse and exploitation of others, many of whom didn’t even have the responsibility of being Christians, and didn’t have to deal with the challenges and difficulties of your own life? It all sounds to me like you’re grasping a burning nail for the flimsy chance that an omnipotent being that could and should treat you better does actually really exist.
“Our planet has been observing your puny species since your planet was created 5,000 years ago by God. In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.”
All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire," says the LORD Almighty. - Malachi 4
This is the first verse you cited. It has nothing to do with what you are asserting.
That’s the problem with finding sources who interpret the Bible to what they want it to mean. It usually has nothing to do with what is actually written.
Moreover, and I’ve seen this over and over as soon as a theist tells an atheist to provide passages in the Bible the conversation is pretty much done.
Thank you for showing up here and providing us your insight. I really wish folks like you that show up and provide it wouldn’t be downvoted because you don’t fit their view of a Christian.
the idea of the immortal soul comes from greek philosophy and isn’t biblical at all
Sorta. You have the Nephelium which are strongly hinted at to be the ghosts of great warriors that died. You also have the Witch of Endor who can channel ghosts. Their idea of an immortal soul wasn’t consistent and it is reflected in the Hebrew Bible. You are right however the Christian concept of the soul most likely comes from Plato.
I don’t know why you say hell isn’t a place. The word comes from a physical location that you can even visit if you want in Israel. As for Luke he was clearly just copying what Paul said about “if they knew what they were doing…”. Because Paul had to explain the nonsense story related to him.
I see. So you have an explanation of why God changes his mind about the details, why there are so many variants in the texts, and why some random Letters, Epistles, and Gospels are missing? If God choosr to write a book why is he so bad at the task?
One can’t chose to believe something, you either believe it or you don’t. I don’t believe in God because there is no evidence for it, and nothing that cannot be explained without God, and no explanation involving God which isn’t made more complicated by His involvement. If God exists, and he did in fact create me, then he made me this way, incapable of belief without proof. So his choice is that I no be ‘with him’. I have no fee will.
I counter with deductive reasoning and the Epicurean Paradox. It’s not a question about is there a god. Can’t really solve that. The better question is does he deserve worship?
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Cool story, so what’s with the fire, brimstone and eternity of suffering? Seems a little much for an event?
Or maybe you’re of one of the denominations that don’t believe in hell?
There were fuckin bored and Netflix wasn’t around.
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As you say, you’re in the minority of Christians in your belief, and that many believe in the literal, eternal suffering, lake of fire kind of hell. Memes kind of have to cater to common denominators, so might then not pertain to you.
We don’t have many adventists where I’m from, would you entertain a theological question from your belief?
What role does Hell play in your denomination? In other Christianities it’s often a deterrent, source of God fear, and an answer to what happens to the out-group (heathens, gentiles, sinners, etc).
If Hell is a “short” event before eternal death-sleep (I googled adventist hell belief, sorry if I’m misunderstanding), it seems like it would be a very mild punishment for cardinal sins/heresy, but maybe you don’t have those?
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He wants to forgive us?? Then he could do it. He’s all powerful, all knowing after all. What do I have to be forgiven for? Original sin? Give me a break.
How many hoops do you need to jump through to arrive at a christian conclusion? How many times did you have to be told to believe in something unprovable and invisible?
Your fervent beliefs are likely held less strongly than some Hindus, Muslims, Jews, etc. They are ALL sure that you are wrong, just as you they. Can’t you see the futility of pretending to know something unknowable? If you had been born somewhere else, you would perhaps hold completely different views just as strongly.
You blindly place your trust in other humans who are telling you to believe in something utterly impossible. You really think they have translated divine will over millennia? Let alone accurately? If the devil exists, then he lives in the utter hubris of humanity. To think that we can know the unknowable.
Isn’t it convenient that the “devil” is responsible for sowing the seeds of doubt. Isn’t it convenient that no matter what logic and reason you apply, your religion can merely hand-wave and say it isn’t for us to know? Are you satisfied with non-answers and manipulation of your emotions?
You’re being duped. I genuinely hope you can find your way out.
Cheers,
A formerly brainwashed Catholic child
He is omnipotent, he can simply forgive us without our involvement. Or allow forgiveness after death, because death is an arbitrary cutoff. Or provide more obvious evidence he exists instead of giving children cancer.
The meme is applicable to your beliefs as well. Guess correctly in ~100 years of life or be denied paradise for eternity.
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He “overrides” free will all the time, like when he commits global genocide by flood because everyone was bad. BTW none of them yet had Jesus to worship for salvation, so I guess they’re just out of luck, huh? Or when god directly murders a person does that give them a free ticket?
He does give children cancer. He created the world, he created all the evil in the world, he created cancer. “No, boo hoo, we are fallen, we ate the fruit,” he created the fruit, he placed us next to the fruit.
Heaven is completely unconscionable. If a child refused to come to an activity one weekend, you’d spitefully refuse to allow that child to attend that activity forever? That’s how a child behaves, not an adult. That’s how god behaves also.
The whole concept is idiotic. It’s clearly fairy tales built on the morals of the era they came from. But because generations of gullible believers have been brainwashing their children we have to deal with it to this day.
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Kudos for sharing your side of things here. Even if I don’t agree ;P
It bothers me how many people use the downvote button as a “I disagree” button.
Well that seems to depend on who’s reading it :P
I might not be understanding the nuances here, but from what you say even an Unforgivable Sin is “punished” by oblivion in the death-sleep, no?
So I gather then that you don’t really fear hell, although not-hell would be preferable?
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In that case, why would anyone fear hell?
And if hell is the event at which you aren’t choosing God, why have it in the discourse at all? Or maybe I’m imagining it wrong, as to me it sounds like a waiting room kind of deal, you die, you wait until you make the decision and then you pass on to whatever you chose - rebirth or long sleep (in which case also the next thing to happen would be Him coming back, as either God changes their mind over eternity or you don’t wake up at all).
Virtually every Christian sect has beliefs that aren’t explicitely stated in the Bible.
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Do you know how the Bible was written?
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The Bible is a lot of different collections of many different books written, re-written, and orally transmited tales, of which at various points of history different Christian traditions have chosen which ones were canon and which ones were not (and therefore were taken out of the Bible), often with political actors influencing their decisions. If God inspired them all to write the Bible, how does it come that different Christian traditions chose different books? How come that plenty of its meaning got lost across plenty of languages if there was divine help? How come that an English Bible and a Russian Orthodox one may say substantially different things, merely due to translation divergences that piled on during centuries? If you accept all of this, how can all of them be saying the truth, if they dissent from each other? If only one of them says the truth, how do you know which one is it? If only one particular version of the Bible is the correct one, why doesn’t God correct the record to make sure the hundreds of millions of Christians through the world who are following wrong ones aren’t led astray?
And it started here.
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Alright, so you have a belief that the “most complete” set of books that most Christian traditions chose (already flimsy ground, but let’s carry on), were chosen by divine influence, that whatever potential distortions or misinterpretations of the original texts do not fundamentally skew its original intended meanings, and I’m also going to add to the list that you believe that plenty of its contents must be understood as allegory or excused because they’re the result of a very different cultural context, because I don’t think you are going to excuse that passages such as this:
Allowing corporal punishment of slaves as long as they don’t drop dead.
There is a severe degree of arbitrariness in deciding that a very specific set of books that were chosen and translated by fallible human beings, under the watchful gaze of rulers that were often arbitrary and politically motivated, were divinely inspired to declare the Universal truth of an All-Powerful god, but you should also pass it all through the prism of your personal interpretation, because that All-Powerful god couldn’t be bothered to make the job any easier for you, or even worse,
Perhaps that god has decided to personally curse you, because not only weren’t you born among the billions of human beings that aren’t Christian, but you were raised as a Christian with the capacity and will to get yourself involved in theological discussions, which in your view, brings you ever closer to the knowledge of your god, and therefore increases your responsibility to behave as you think is moral, even if it brings you pain, doubt, heartbreak or confrontation with your neighbours, your community or your congregation. Why should you be loaded with this responsibility, out of the millions of people who have lived more comfortable lives, with more capacity to raise their own status over the abuse and exploitation of others, many of whom didn’t even have the responsibility of being Christians, and didn’t have to deal with the challenges and difficulties of your own life? It all sounds to me like you’re grasping a burning nail for the flimsy chance that an omnipotent being that could and should treat you better does actually really exist.
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“Our planet has been observing your puny species since your planet was created 5,000 years ago by God. In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.”
thank you for answering questions here, despite all the snark and smartassery in this comment-section.
Are you saying that ALL of the verses about hell being “eternal” or “everlasting” are taken out of context?
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Jude 1:7 Matthew 25:41 And many more
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This is the first verse you cited. It has nothing to do with what you are asserting.
That’s the problem with finding sources who interpret the Bible to what they want it to mean. It usually has nothing to do with what is actually written.
Moreover, and I’ve seen this over and over as soon as a theist tells an atheist to provide passages in the Bible the conversation is pretty much done.
Ahem
Hell is not eternal.
Doom is eternal.
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Thank you for showing up here and providing us your insight. I really wish folks like you that show up and provide it wouldn’t be downvoted because you don’t fit their view of a Christian.
Sorta. You have the Nephelium which are strongly hinted at to be the ghosts of great warriors that died. You also have the Witch of Endor who can channel ghosts. Their idea of an immortal soul wasn’t consistent and it is reflected in the Hebrew Bible. You are right however the Christian concept of the soul most likely comes from Plato.
I don’t know why you say hell isn’t a place. The word comes from a physical location that you can even visit if you want in Israel. As for Luke he was clearly just copying what Paul said about “if they knew what they were doing…”. Because Paul had to explain the nonsense story related to him.
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I used to be a Christian so I like to think I know my hermeneutics.
That said, this post just goes to show how wildly a simple book can be interpreted. I wasn’t a Seventh Day Adventist. I was a Calvinist.
It shows just how confident you can be in absolutely nothing.
When you really look into scripture, you come to realize it’s a book filled with words with no real truth outside of some dudes wrote it.
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God also told me that you’re going to hell for being a Seventh Day Adventist. He inspired me to write it down and everything.
So you got that going for you.
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I see. So you have an explanation of why God changes his mind about the details, why there are so many variants in the texts, and why some random Letters, Epistles, and Gospels are missing? If God choosr to write a book why is he so bad at the task?
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One can’t chose to believe something, you either believe it or you don’t. I don’t believe in God because there is no evidence for it, and nothing that cannot be explained without God, and no explanation involving God which isn’t made more complicated by His involvement. If God exists, and he did in fact create me, then he made me this way, incapable of belief without proof. So his choice is that I no be ‘with him’. I have no fee will.
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Yes. This is Pascal’s wager.
I counter with deductive reasoning and the Epicurean Paradox. It’s not a question about is there a god. Can’t really solve that. The better question is does he deserve worship?
[I’d answer a resounding no. In fact, he should beg for our forgiveness] (https://youtu.be/-suvkwNYSQo?si=RU3xdD2iBJZrb80p)
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