Hard: And an odd time she’d cook him up blooms of fisk and lay to his heartsfoot her meddery eygs, yayis, and staynish beacons on toasc and a cupenhave so weeshywashy of Greenland’s tay or a dzoupgan of Kaffue mokau an sable or Sikiang sukry or his ale of ferns in trueart pewter and a shinkobread (hamjambo, bana?) for to plaise that man hog stay his stomicker till her pyrraknees shrunk to nutmeg graters while her togglejoints shuck with goyt and as rash as she’d russ with her peakload of vivers up on her sieve (metauwero rage it swales and rieses) my hardey Hek he’d kast them frome him, with a stour of scorn, as much as to say you sow and you sozh, and if he didn’t peg the platteau on her tawe, believe you me, she was safe enough.
James Joyce was widely regarded as a pretentious ass even back then. Tons of people have done stream of consciousness much better. The only people who should bother with Finnegan are academics. There is literally no substance or point to the story - it is entirely narrative fart sniffing.
It may be pretentious and impenetrable but that doesn’t make it bad. There are puns you have to know multiple languages to get, densly layered references, unusual structures and fun wordplay abounds. The word quark came from FW. It’s challenging, but fun to read because it’s challenging.
I’m not saying git gud, no one should have to read FW. It’s kind of uniquely just a joy to read for the sake of enjoying the sounds of words and how they play together. Reading it for the plot or the characters is kind of missing the point, I think.
That’s the whole problem with the AI summarizer: it requires you to believe that the only reason to write anything is to communicate some simplistic idea: a command, a moral, or an instruction. But writing isn’t just to convey a plot or moral lesson in the least, smallest words possible. Writing is poems and songs, plots and novels, screenplays and anecdotes, slogans and slogs. Writing can just be fun for the sake of words and doesn’t have to always convey some easily summarized or quantified concept.
Don’t get me wrong, I generally agree with the sentiment that it’s got plenty of artistic merit lurking around in there, but about 90% of that is going to be anachronistic to a modern reader who isn’t using a heavily annotated version, at which point a lot of the genuine wit gets beaten down by footnotes. Art has a way of losing its impact when you need it explained.
That’s why I say most people shouldn’t bother. It is legitimately almost impossible for a modern reader to experience the book the way it was written to be experienced unless you spend a graduate degree working up to it. Instead what you will get is akin to a painting which has been blurred over by a foggy window, with someone standing on the other side trying to describe it to you. There are just many better ways to spend a dozen or so hours.
Pretty much, yes. In fact this bit is on the clearer side compared to most of the text. It’s very challenging and one should probably not dive into it unprepared (there are a lot of side literature and guides to accompany it). However it’s well worth the effort once you learn how to read it (e.g. the words draw their meanings via how they’re sounding in addition to how they’re written).
““Occasionally she’d cook meals(?) of fish for him and place on his heartsfoot [hearth’s foot? heart’s foot, figurative language for joy?] her meddery [???] eggs, sausages, and stainish [burnt/crispy] bacon on toast, and a wishy-washy cup of Greenland tea or soup-can(?) of coffee, milk and sugar, or Si-Kiang sugary [some sort of sweet tea?], or ale of ferns [herbal ale?] in trueart [skillfully crafted] pewter, and a bit of bread “??? ???” to please him and keep his stomach porky, until her (???)knees shrunk to nutmeg graters while her joints shucked [peeled] with gout; and as rash as she’d rush with her peak-load of provisions up on her sieve [???] “(???) rage, it swells and rises”, my hardy Hek [Hector?], he’d cast them from him, with a stour [force] of scorn, as much as to say you sow and you sorrow, and if he didn’t peg it flat on her (tail/head/heel?), believe you me, she was safe enough.””
I don’t know what kind of rural Irish hell this comes out of, but some of the words don’t even look English. I hated trying to decipher that and I’m sure I wasn’t accurate for half of it.
A woman often cooks various meals for a man, but he consistently rejects her efforts despite her persistence, even when she’s physically struggling. Still, she remains safe.
That’s actually not that bad. Of course missing all the smells and taste of the text, allusions and double meanings, but as a very coarse synopsis it’ll do.
Oh it did give a longer response initially, then I asked to reduce the sentence to its essence, just like the ad from this post did. The longer version was:
A woman occasionally prepares a meal for a man, including a variety of foods and drinks, potentially exotic or unusual. Despite her efforts and the variety she provides, the man often dismisses the meals disdainfully. Even when she’s struggling physically (with shaking joints), she keeps trying to please him with her cooking. But no matter how hard she tries, he often rejects her efforts, treating her with scorn. Despite his harsh treatment, the woman remains safe.
Many parts of FW work a bit like an abstract painting where each viewer finds their own interpretation, each of those equally valid and independent of what the author possibly intended. An AI dumbed down version would just show one path through the work, the one it thinks is the main road. But yes, at best, such version could sparkle an interest and function as a gateway to the work. Or extinguish all interest for good.
For a reader who likes weird books it isn’t boring. For someone required to endure it as part of a class and wants to go to a good school to become a marine biologist or chemistry major, it’s very boring.
For many people, they can’t easily avoid slow books like this with strange language because it’s required as a general prerequisite in high school or college. And getting into a “good” school usually requires feigning some interest in this type of dross.
The skill of reading weird old language that is circuitious and painful really only teaches boredom tolerance for those who don’t like literature of olden days.
For a reader who likes weird books it isn’t boring. For someone required to endure it as part of a class and wants to go to a good school to become a marine biologist or chemistry major, it’s very boring.
So there you have your answer why we can’t all collectively agree that it’s boring. Some people like it and/or get something out of reading it.
You could say the same about anything that requires effort, like learning a programming language for example. Of course a lot of people are going to find it boring and obtuse - but no one questions why it’s sometimes a requirement to learn it. That being said, I doubt aspiring marine biologists are being forced to read Finnegans Wake in particular.
Well, let me put it this way then: with your strategy, in 50 years there will be no one left alive who would be able to use or understand the word labyrinthine.
Well, if you mean literally, a little boredom is good for the brain.
If you mean why should we strive to make kids have a good vocabulary, it’s so that they can communicate with others and be able to understand the world better.
If you mean why should we strive to make kids appreciate art, it’s because art is good for kids’ brains, for everyone’s brains.
If you just mean you can’t force all kids to be into the same things, yes, I agree. But all should learn math, reading at an adult level, comfortably, sciences, art of some sort, and physical education of some sort.
You aren’t better off just always doing what comes easy to you. Forcing your mind and body to do things that are difficult is what makes you stronger and smarter. The learning difficult books that you disdain so thoroughly will make it both easier and more fun to read, eventually, but also just trains your mind to handle language better.
This is a naive position. In a class society, the upper classes see to it that their kids get educated. If you’re the daughter of an AC repairman, and you like books with weird words in them, your chances to have a career in the field where you would thrive are slim to none. The best way to counter this is to offer a lot of education, to everyone, not just to the people “with a good head for reading” that just happens to also all have rich parents. For this noble cause, taking the risk that a few kids might be bored for a few hours seems like a reasonable prize to pay. You never know what kid is going to respond to what subject, this is why a broad education is important.
I promise you Finnegan’s Wake is not required reading for any non-English major, and even then likely not until the graduate level (and probably only excerpts unless it’s a whole class on just the book).
Now do Finnegans Wake.
Hard: And an odd time she’d cook him up blooms of fisk and lay to his heartsfoot her meddery eygs, yayis, and staynish beacons on toasc and a cupenhave so weeshywashy of Greenland’s tay or a dzoupgan of Kaffue mokau an sable or Sikiang sukry or his ale of ferns in trueart pewter and a shinkobread (hamjambo, bana?) for to plaise that man hog stay his stomicker till her pyrraknees shrunk to nutmeg graters while her togglejoints shuck with goyt and as rash as she’d russ with her peakload of vivers up on her sieve (metauwero rage it swales and rieses) my hardey Hek he’d kast them frome him, with a stour of scorn, as much as to say you sow and you sozh, and if he didn’t peg the platteau on her tawe, believe you me, she was safe enough.
Easy: Something something… crash
James Joyce was widely regarded as a pretentious ass even back then. Tons of people have done stream of consciousness much better. The only people who should bother with Finnegan are academics. There is literally no substance or point to the story - it is entirely narrative fart sniffing.
It may be pretentious and impenetrable but that doesn’t make it bad. There are puns you have to know multiple languages to get, densly layered references, unusual structures and fun wordplay abounds. The word quark came from FW. It’s challenging, but fun to read because it’s challenging.
I’m not saying git gud, no one should have to read FW. It’s kind of uniquely just a joy to read for the sake of enjoying the sounds of words and how they play together. Reading it for the plot or the characters is kind of missing the point, I think.
That’s the whole problem with the AI summarizer: it requires you to believe that the only reason to write anything is to communicate some simplistic idea: a command, a moral, or an instruction. But writing isn’t just to convey a plot or moral lesson in the least, smallest words possible. Writing is poems and songs, plots and novels, screenplays and anecdotes, slogans and slogs. Writing can just be fun for the sake of words and doesn’t have to always convey some easily summarized or quantified concept.
Don’t get me wrong, I generally agree with the sentiment that it’s got plenty of artistic merit lurking around in there, but about 90% of that is going to be anachronistic to a modern reader who isn’t using a heavily annotated version, at which point a lot of the genuine wit gets beaten down by footnotes. Art has a way of losing its impact when you need it explained.
That’s why I say most people shouldn’t bother. It is legitimately almost impossible for a modern reader to experience the book the way it was written to be experienced unless you spend a graduate degree working up to it. Instead what you will get is akin to a painting which has been blurred over by a foggy window, with someone standing on the other side trying to describe it to you. There are just many better ways to spend a dozen or so hours.
Any recommendation or favourites?
The Great Gatsby is actually a good one. Catcher in the Rye. As I Lay Dying. The Waves.
Yo, what? Is the book all written like this?? Kinda badass, but also super challenging to wring meaning from
Pretty much, yes. In fact this bit is on the clearer side compared to most of the text. It’s very challenging and one should probably not dive into it unprepared (there are a lot of side literature and guides to accompany it). However it’s well worth the effort once you learn how to read it (e.g. the words draw their meanings via how they’re sounding in addition to how they’re written).
Sounds fun
““Occasionally she’d cook meals(?) of fish for him and place on his heartsfoot [hearth’s foot? heart’s foot, figurative language for joy?] her meddery [???] eggs, sausages, and stainish [burnt/crispy] bacon on toast, and a wishy-washy cup of Greenland tea or soup-can(?) of coffee, milk and sugar, or Si-Kiang sugary [some sort of sweet tea?], or ale of ferns [herbal ale?] in trueart [skillfully crafted] pewter, and a bit of bread “??? ???” to please him and keep his stomach porky, until her (???)knees shrunk to nutmeg graters while her joints shucked [peeled] with gout; and as rash as she’d rush with her peak-load of provisions up on her sieve [???] “(???) rage, it swells and rises”, my hardy Hek [Hector?], he’d cast them from him, with a stour [force] of scorn, as much as to say you sow and you sorrow, and if he didn’t peg it flat on her (tail/head/heel?), believe you me, she was safe enough.””
I don’t know what kind of rural Irish hell this comes out of, but some of the words don’t even look English. I hated trying to decipher that and I’m sure I wasn’t accurate for half of it.
A woman often cooks various meals for a man, but he consistently rejects her efforts despite her persistence, even when she’s physically struggling. Still, she remains safe.
Brought to you by ChatGPT 4.0
That’s actually not that bad. Of course missing all the smells and taste of the text, allusions and double meanings, but as a very coarse synopsis it’ll do.
Oh it did give a longer response initially, then I asked to reduce the sentence to its essence, just like the ad from this post did. The longer version was:
Interesting. I’d definitely skim through such a version, albeit it totally abolishes the intricacies of FW.
Yep, but it opens it up to a broader audience. Even though that’s probably exactly the opposite of what he intended.
Many parts of FW work a bit like an abstract painting where each viewer finds their own interpretation, each of those equally valid and independent of what the author possibly intended. An AI dumbed down version would just show one path through the work, the one it thinks is the main road. But yes, at best, such version could sparkle an interest and function as a gateway to the work. Or extinguish all interest for good.
I read 4 words of that and was already fantasizing about guzzling the entire contents of a bottle of ADD meds
I don’t get why we can’t all objectively agree how boring that is?
It’s a lot of things, but definitely not boring…
I’d like to see Willem Defoe shouting it into a camera while not blinking.
None of this is vocalized. It’s all inner monologue.
Which makes me less bored because…?
For a reader who likes weird books it isn’t boring. For someone required to endure it as part of a class and wants to go to a good school to become a marine biologist or chemistry major, it’s very boring.
For many people, they can’t easily avoid slow books like this with strange language because it’s required as a general prerequisite in high school or college. And getting into a “good” school usually requires feigning some interest in this type of dross.
The skill of reading weird old language that is circuitious and painful really only teaches boredom tolerance for those who don’t like literature of olden days.
Sheesh, it’s not even a hundred years old yet.
So there you have your answer why we can’t all collectively agree that it’s boring. Some people like it and/or get something out of reading it.
You could say the same about anything that requires effort, like learning a programming language for example. Of course a lot of people are going to find it boring and obtuse - but no one questions why it’s sometimes a requirement to learn it. That being said, I doubt aspiring marine biologists are being forced to read Finnegans Wake in particular.
Not Finnegans Wake in particular, but something boring and slow with old labyrinthyian language that gives people a headache to follow.
Most people take programming as an elective whereas as old slow books are generally required for everyone.
Well, let me put it this way then: with your strategy, in 50 years there will be no one left alive who would be able to use or understand the word labyrinthine.
That’s not true. People who like language will naturally gravitate towards learning weird words
Just like people who like using their hands will gravitate toward air conditiioning repair and woodworking over time
Why does EVERYONE need to be bored right now?
Because a broad educational background is important and people can’t know if they’d be into old literature without being exposed to it.
Well, if you mean literally, a little boredom is good for the brain.
If you mean why should we strive to make kids have a good vocabulary, it’s so that they can communicate with others and be able to understand the world better.
If you mean why should we strive to make kids appreciate art, it’s because art is good for kids’ brains, for everyone’s brains.
If you just mean you can’t force all kids to be into the same things, yes, I agree. But all should learn math, reading at an adult level, comfortably, sciences, art of some sort, and physical education of some sort.
You aren’t better off just always doing what comes easy to you. Forcing your mind and body to do things that are difficult is what makes you stronger and smarter. The learning difficult books that you disdain so thoroughly will make it both easier and more fun to read, eventually, but also just trains your mind to handle language better.
This is a naive position. In a class society, the upper classes see to it that their kids get educated. If you’re the daughter of an AC repairman, and you like books with weird words in them, your chances to have a career in the field where you would thrive are slim to none. The best way to counter this is to offer a lot of education, to everyone, not just to the people “with a good head for reading” that just happens to also all have rich parents. For this noble cause, taking the risk that a few kids might be bored for a few hours seems like a reasonable prize to pay. You never know what kid is going to respond to what subject, this is why a broad education is important.
I promise you Finnegan’s Wake is not required reading for any non-English major, and even then likely not until the graduate level (and probably only excerpts unless it’s a whole class on just the book).
It’s Finnegans Wake, without the apostrophe. Obviously a book full of puns and riddles must have them in its title as well.